Comments on: is HTML the new PL/SQL?

By: Peyton Rivera

Peyton Rivera — Sat, 01 May 2010 07:55:46 +0000

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By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:13:48 +0000

Anyone who thinks ORM spells the death of SQL needs to wake up and do some work in a long-standing Fortune 100 business whose business processes are intricately intertwined with IT, via Oracle eBusiness Suite or other ERP systems from other vendors. Application programming isn’t the only place SQL is used. Businesses rely on this very heavily for intricate reporting, forecasting different aspects of their business, etc., things that are just completely unnatural via ORM, and still would be even if ORM tools worked perfectly and were super easy to use. Object-orientation isn’t the solution to all problems. It is in the domain of many application scenarios, but there are other types of programming and technical work that are not a natural fit for the OOP paradigm, and many new developers these days who have experience doing nothing but MVC webapps don’t seem to realize this.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:04:08 +0000

Also, perhaps this isn’t so big an issue in simple CRUD webapps, but procedural DB languages allow for much more intricate transaction control than using a DBMS-neutral ORM tool in some higher level language. The thought of catching SQLExceptions in Java, determining exactly what caused them in the database and rolling back to earlier transaction save-points and continuing down other data paths makes me cringe. When complex things are happening in complex databases, re-implementing transaction safety is a waste of time and is almost guaranteed not to work as well as using a native DB procedural language. Database management systems are built to be reliable, and this is their focus and unique, core competency.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 04:58:21 +0000

More lines of code does not necessarily mean a greater probability of errors. Languages like Eiffel and the extremely-strongly-typed Ada, and generally all more strongly-typed programming languages dictate more code, but this code explicitly specifies allowable behaviors that dynamic languages have to guess about. There is a reason strongly-typed languages like Ada and Eiffel are used almost exclusively for flight control and aerospace software.

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By: Dimitris

Dimitris — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:19:02 +0000

JPA is useless outside the scope of JVM. Hibernate may have a .Net sibling, though here comes Microsoft offering their (completely different) thing. Ruby? there is ActiveRecord but you have to learn everything again. PHP? Perl? Python?

The point is that SQL is more universal than any kind of ORM will be.

By: Dino

Dino — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:08:53 +0000

Of course you need to know SQL. Contrary to the beliefs of some, we are going to use RDBMs for years to come. Unless we can get a perfect ORM that not only knows how to do joins efficently in all cases AND knows what columns that needs to be indexed, you need to learn SQL.

Key-value-stores have their place of course, so any good developer needs to know when to use which technology.

By: Raibaz

Raibaz — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:25:58 +0000

@Florian: you got the comparison wrong, it’s between GWT and ORMs, which actually translate object-oriented code in SQL.

Code translation from a higher abstraction level to a lower one happens since the first compiler and is the reason why we’re not writing assembler anymore.

You probably have a point in saying it’s suboptimal, and this is the reason why PL/SQL could survive in environments where optimization is crucial (exactly as environments who still use assembler), but the benefits of using a higher abstraction level are too big to be ignored just because of optimization.

@paulb: i totally agree, SQL is doomed for the majority of apps and will probably survive just in some inherently relational situations.

By: paulb

paulb — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:37:53 +0000

The ORM may be hot today… but tomorrow, the key-value-store or document-oriented database will be the new king. Many people will realize these approaches are a better fit for their needs than an ORM’d SQL.

Then you can write Part II of this article “Is today’s ORM the new HTML and PL/SQL”

Non-SQL systems will reign king soon. The ORM will lose attention as less people will use SQL systems.

Data impedance issues will cause SQL db’s and their ORM friends to lose market share. Not saying RDBMS will die, they are certainly the #1 fit for allot of situations. But a majority of apps are better fit for other database systems.